um I'm Jessica Levesque I'm the
executive director at C4 which is short
for the cryptocurrency certification
Consortium which is clearly a mouthful
which is why we go by C4 and we're a
non-profit we've been around since 2014
and our focus is on education standards
and certification thank you Jessica for
that introduction and it's always fun to
have women on the Pod because like I
um women have a very unique perspective
in this ecosystem and I think it's truly
important it's lacking but with
individuals such as yourself you give
inspiration to other women out there to
kind of build on this ecosystem and you
know put their best foot forward and
Jessica the first question I wanted to
ask you was you know what inspired you
to get into Bitcoin where did you learn
about it how are you orange pills
whether it was a person an event or even
an educational course that kind of got
you started yeah so I my history isn't
um anything that has to do with security
or finances I was a college professor
and then I moved I stayed in higher ed I
was an associate Dean and so I've always
loved education and then a friend of
mine who I had worked with at a previous
college she got into Bitcoin and she is
the one who I guess orange pilled me
because she was always talking about it
and I went to a meet-up actually where
she spoke and I spent the whole time
kind of ignoring the whole meet up
except for her part just to support her
and then I'd say like two years three
years later I was like why am I not
listening to this so it took me a while
so I think there's sometimes this
misunderstanding that you get orange
pilled and then you just fall down the
rabbit hole and that does happen for
some people but it's also okay if you're
sort of exploring trying to figure it
out it takes you a little bit longer but
yeah my first introduction was through a
friend who her name's Pamela Morgan she
wrote the book crypto asset inheritance
planning she's brilliant and I was very
lucky because I had support from her and
some other friends that I know who are
are very interested in Bitcoin and
ethereum and um they brought me in and I
really felt lucky that I could learn
from trusted experts people that I
already trusted because it is scary and
new to try something completely
different and out of your wheelhouse so
that intro was something that I feel
like gave me um it was really a gift yes
and I I think that your journey is so
interesting like I've traversed your
background a little bit and I just know
that you have a very high standard for
how you educate people your community
and I mean naturally I just think that
this position just fits you perfectly
you know it's like your wheelhouse
everything that you've done in your past
has accumulated into where you are right
now and it's just beautiful to see
um how people are adopting Bitcoin and
learning from people in different ways
like you know I have tons of guests on
this show and some people uh use books
to be orange pilled or they go to an
event or meet up but it's always
beautiful to hear like friends and
colleagues kind of orange peeling people
um type of vibe when it comes to bitcoin
and I wanted to ask you Jessica like you
know there's tons of Bitcoin educational
platforms out there tons of
certifications out there but how does C4
get this right and what drove your
passion to actually educate people in
particular with Bitcoin yeah so why
don't I start with a little history of
um C4 and how we started to do education
so we started in 2014 because our
co-founders Joshua McDougall and Michael
Kirkland were already working in the
industry and they were trying to figure
out how to hire people who actually knew
how Bitcoin worked because it's pretty
easy to say oh I get it and to say a few
things and you sound like you know it
but do you really know it and I think
you've probably experienced this too
since you've been around for a while
there are people out there that
misrepresent themselves as being
knowledgeable and they're not actually
and so the exam the Bitcoin exam was
written by Michael and vitalik Buddha
and they were at a co-working space
together and this is before vitalik
created ethereum and they wrote the
first exam and this was in 2014 and it's
been reiterated on in many ways over the
years and it is now curated by a
volunteer committee and so it is sourced
from the community it is Community
Driven which I think is really important
but I came along in 2019 so I'd already
been working in the crypto space for a
few years I worked for Andreas
Antonopoulos doing education and um when
I moved over to C4 the first thing I had
to do as executive director was take the
CBP the certified Bitcoin professional
exam and I will tell you I was terrified
first of all I am not a great exam taker
second of all there's so much
information to know and I wasn't sure
where to get the correct information and
then the third piece is I was directly
taking it from the people I'd be
reporting to from the board and I was
I'm going to feel so silly luckily I did
not fail but it made me realize that it
is difficult to I know a lot of people
say dyor do your own research and I
think that there is a benefit to that
because you have to make sure that
you're using trusted resources but at
the same time if you're pulling from all
of these different resources and you're
taking the time to curate your own
knowledge you're missing out on time
that you could be spending actually
learning and so to have somebody create
this educational content that somebody
else can use is I think a huge benefit
because then the time being spent is on
learning not on bringing resources
together for oneself so with that being
said one of the first things I did was
say to the Bitcoin committee that was
newly formed we need to come up with
some resources so there was already a
study guide which was awesome it's still
there it's open it's free anybody can
look at it but then we also created a
prep book and a course to prepare people
because rather than spending the time
trying to put this information together
instead they're spending the time
studying taking the exam and then going
out and actually using these skills in
the workforce and being able to prove
that they have this knowledge and I
think that's a much better use of time
and my thoughts on that I would say is
you know we live in such a litigious
society that you know there's so many
I don't want to say lawsuits but just
the crypto ecosystem Is So based around
you know the SEC and Gary ginsler and
some of these protocols where there's
people out here kind of promoting
cryptocurrencies or educating people on
cryptocurrencies to do a particular
um buy sell or trade and I just think
that when you have a solid foundation of
certification that kind of allows people
that are viewing you as an audience
member to kind of have a little bit more
confidence that what you're telling them
is actually true and then you're
following the guidelines of you know a
certification platform such as C4 that
um stringent uh policies and rules and
Educators that really know what they're
talking about such as yourself and I
will say this too Jessica that um when I
was studying for my exam there was a
couple things that I did that I felt
really helped me and it might help other
people in the audience which is
um there was a YouTube course that
Andreas Antonopoulos had kind of
prepping you for the exam I give that a
thumbs up because that was so helpful
for me like that was like yeah yeah and
then there was and and then there was
one that you had very recently where you
were talking about securing your Bitcoin
and keeping it safe that was extremely
helpful for me and I just think that
taking those or watching those per se in
conjunction with having the prep exam
it's like a straight shot and I just
wanted to thank C4 and yourself for
bringing that exam to light because it
really has helped me as a podcaster and
a YouTuber that when I talk about
Bitcoin I have some validity and
certification to back up exactly what
I'm talking about when it comes to
bitcoin I love that and I do love that
um the information was brought together
by a bunch of different people with
different experiences and different
belief systems so that it is as unbiased
as I think you can get that's my opinion
which is obviously biased but um I do
think it's important that it is brought
together for from people who have
different understandings of the
technology and different thoughts on
what it can be used for because if it's
just one person's perspective if you're
proving your knowledge based on one
person's point of view of what knowledge
is important then you could be missing a
ton of other key pieces of knowledge so
I think that the way that this was
created is really important and the exam
is well I should back up the exam was
created and then the content based on it
so you will have everything you need to
know to pass the exam but it's not like
here's content that you should just know
and study for to pass it's actually
usable it's things that you'll come
across that you'll be after it'll be
brought up that you do want to know and
feel like you have that proof of
knowledge College which is for me why I
maintain my CBP I actually just got an
email yesterday or the day before saying
that I needed to renew it soon and which
I will be doing so but it I my first
thought was oh gosh how much has it
changed and do I am I prepared still and
I thought well that's a kind of a good
question which is the whole point of it
um but I do think that there's always
that question do I know everything
that's going on right now and this is
the way to prove it to ourselves and
kind of it's like that little like
um you know feather in your cap that you
really do get something yes and you know
this this question might be subjective
but what are the benefits of being a
certified Bitcoin professional of course
everybody has a different approach and a
different way of answering that but I
just want to hear your personal
perspective on what do you think the
benefits of having a certification would
be yeah well for me personally when I
first got mine I was just like oh yes I
actually get it I and I I feel it gave
me this confidence that I didn't have
before I passed it I do know that though
that it also really benefits people that
are working in the professional
um not necessarily professionally in
crypto or in Bitcoin but working
professionally in a company where they
need to understand Bitcoin so for
lawyers for accountants for anybody who
is maybe like adjacent to bitcoin people
even working in traditional Finance it's
important to understand how this works
and that is something that it's
difficult to prove and one of the things
I love about our exam is the first part
of the exam is that you have to pay in
cryptocurrency so if you don't know how
to use crypto then you can't become a
certified Bitcoin professional and that
came about before I was a part of C4 and
I just think that it's a wonderful idea
to have that be that first test of
knowledge yes and I agree with that and
I've seen C4 floating around for a long
time a couple of years now and the first
person I knew that was certified was
Isaiah Jackson also known as Bitcoin say
when his book Bitcoin in Black America
came out I saw on the back of his book
that he was a certified Bitcoin
professional and I was like oh man I
definitely want to get that
certification and then I was like wait a
minute 99 in Bitcoin and at that time I
was like I'm not parting with my Bitcoin
I'm not giving anyone of my Bitcoin but
then as I've kind of evolved in the
ecosystem and understood the importance
of having a certification like I
mentioned earlier on parting with that
99 was easy for me because I understood
that that certification would gain me
more in value than the 99 so
um I agree with that I think that you
know I think that the certification
route is definitely needed especially
with all the fud and the disinformation
and misinformation that we're getting
from mainstream Media or just people
just speaking about crypto but they
haven't really proven that hey they know
how to use it and can pay with it and B
study take an exam in 20 minutes 75
questions in past so um C4 is doing a
great job on that front yeah thank you
and I think um I think you've talked
about this before maybe you and I just
did but we have short attention spans
and the exam is just 20 minutes and it's
pretty quick to go through and do it but
it's also a lot of content so either you
know it or you don't 100 questions in 20
minutes is it's rapid fire so you don't
have time to go and look up what is a
private key Either you know how it what
a private key is and how it works or you
don't so it's a quick way to prove that
knowledge and like you said it's 99 and
then you also pay a certification fee so
it comes to a total of 140 USD and you
will see other certifications out there
um some courses are thousands of dollars
and the reason that our prices are so
much lower I mean our course is I think
sixty dollars it's because we believe
that Bitcoin should be accessible to
everyone and if you go to some countries
where there's High inflation or the
exchange rate it varies widely some of
these people can't afford it and I think
that that really negates the purpose of
Bitcoin so I don't see Bitcoin as
something that's just an investment I
see it as something that we can use and
can Bank the unbanked and really change
the world with it and if we don't have
the ability to provide resources to
those who probably need it a lot more
than those of us that live in the U.S
per se these people need access to these
resources which is why we have a lot of
our content for free on YouTube our
study guides free we give a lot of large
discounts out to people in countries or
locations where they can't afford our
exam costs because we really do just
want people to get certified and learn
about it and we also have the exam the
Bitcoin exam in Spanish as well same
thing with the prep book because we do
want this to be Universal and we talk
about decentralization how decentralized
are we if we're just doing something in
one language when we know that there is
not just one language in the world so I
think that that's really important as
well yes and I think that's what makes
C4 really different and Brilliant in my
opinion but uh the burning question I
have for you was you know the obvious
right you're a woman in this ecosystem
and seeing women in this ecosystem is
rare you have Lynn Alden and Natalie
klaminsky and some people that I really
um admire in the space and you're now
one of those people as well Jessica but
I really wanted to ask you like what was
your best lesson being the CEO for
Andreas and panopolis's organization ooh
the best lesson lesson I guess all of
the lessons that I learned from just
about how Bitcoin works and what it can
be used for one of the really fun
projects he's got a hardware wallet
course a demo and some Key Management
courses and I thought that that was
really fun to do because it's one of
those things where you learn about how
to use Bitcoin you might learn about how
to hold it in a wallet and how to use a
hardware wallet but it is difficult to
learn how to self-custody and many many
people choose to use an exchange or some
system where somebody else is actually
holding on to their Bitcoin so for those
listening as a reminder if you don't
hold your own private Keys your own
basically password and someone else does
then they lose them you lose access to
your Bitcoin that's on chain and so this
course I think was a really good
learning experience for me and helping
create it because there are a lot of
different new nuances things you might
not think about or realize and also that
we just forget it's impossible for
humans to retain all of the info you
need to know about things so to go back
and kind of refresh myself as we were
creating it that was really fun I think
that it was a unique experience and one
that I've taken with me because I still
need to know how to use a hardware
wallet and how to manage my private keys
and be safe with all that and we talked
for a minute about attention spans I
have a terrible one I have ADHD and for
many years I pretended like I didn't in
higher ed I sort of wouldn't share that
and I'm very lucky to be in a place now
where I feel like that's not something
to be ashamed of and being somebody that
has this wandering attention span I
recognize that the way that we educate
people about Bitcoin the way that we
educate people on how to use these
different tools for Bitcoin needs to be
done in a way that's accessible and
isn't here is a 12 hour long course and
don't you dare screw this up or that
it's like okay that's terrifying let's
start with the basis Basics let's walk
people through what you need to know and
um and get there in this like
education focused way yes I love that
that's that's so on point you know and I
kind of have built up my podcast
episodes to be a certain length because
of that and you know not only for people
that have ADHD or some other things but
I just think that as we become more
technologically advanced it just
requires more of our attention to be
pulled in all these different directions
whether it's social media or AI or all
these other different things that we're
just consuming on a high level and
there's a lot of vacillation in this
um people are looking for verification
certification and of course I could just
jump on LinkedIn and say I'm a certified
Bitcoin professional put the logo there
and say I passed it on this month and it
expires on that month but I wanted to
ask you Jessica about something that I
think you would know about which is how
does C4 or does C4 better yet keep each
ID verified on a blockchain or somewhere
in a database that people can always go
back and prove um whether it was five or
six years ago that they passed this
certification and it's a legitimate
um you know certification that no one
can kind of manipulate or capitulate
so we don't have our shirts on chain
it's something that we've thought about
doing and maybe in the future right now
we have it in our own system and you can
look it up there is a cert ID number
um I will say that being a certified
Bitcoin professional means you
understand the knowledge that is listed
out in our study guide it doesn't mean
that you are the best investor you've
got this great advice so I always tell
any certification take it with a grain
of salt it may mean that they understand
this content or it does mean they
understand this content but it does not
mean that they're going to be able to
help you become a Bitcoin millionaire
and so you can definitely verify your
assert ID or somebody else's cert ID on
our website and I think the thing to
know too is that because technology
changes quickly in Bitcoin we know
changes less quickly than something like
ethereum and I don't say that in a
negative way Bitcoin and ethereum I'm
not a Bitcoin Maxi um Bitcoin and
ethereum have different purposes and
they both do that very well but they're
very different and Bitcoin changes in
some aspects more slowly and but it
still changes so we do need to keep
coming up with new content and then we
need to verify that people know the new
content so if you take the exam now in
two years is it going to be the exact
same absolutely not is it the same that
it was a year ago no and it shouldn't
because in 2009 the lightning Network
didn't exist so we couldn't have had it
in the exam if we'd started it then so
just making sure that's actually a
challenge that we have is keeping up
with what's changing and making sure
that it is in the exam and that then
you're able to verify the certificate ID
that someone has shown you and to
the exam was taken in a somewhat recent
time period nice thank you for that
answer and I think all the crypto
blockchain people out there have just
been you know teaming at the gates to
know if like there was this on-chain
verification process for C4 I know I
definitely wanted to know that's why I
um my last question for you Jessica is
you know the question that I think a lot
of people that take the certification
are really looking for which is jobs
right so what jobs are looking for
individuals with this C4 certification
um alumni of the program end up being
teachers or advisors for C4 to help
um become certified yeah so
um two questions there one was the jobs
and then um how does someone go from
being certified to maybe doing something
else with it so the job side of it
um it really depends on what you do like
I said there are people who just take it
because they want proof of knowledge
there are people who take it because
they want to be able to move up in their
companies and showing that you
understand how something works is great
if you're looking for a job and you're
competing against other people saying
that you understand how Bitcoin works
even in traditional Finance is something
that is looked upon in a way that maybe
people in Trad fire aren't like oh yes
we've got a bitcoiner but they might
there it's definitely turning around I
went to a conference this fall and there
were companies that you here in the news
that are not supporting Bitcoin and then
they show up at these conferences and
have all kinds of people on their team
so they're using Bitcoin too and they're
trying to adopt it as well so I think
having that certification that
designation proving that you get it
gives you a leg up and it's particularly
useful not necessarily for devs but for
somebody who's trying to work within
like we were talking about before
someone that is a lawyer or an
accountant or doing anything that
relates to crypto and you need to be
able to prove that you you can be the
expert on your team or at your company
and then you can be looked to for any
role that is related to it and as your
company likely will continue to adopt
Bitcoin and other cryptocurrency and web
3 facets that you're able to be that you
know that person and doesn't it feel
good to be that person that's like yeah
I know this and I can prove I know it
like that's such a important feeling I
think that we get to experience when we
learn something and approve that we've
um and then your second question was
um kind of the next steps if you're a
CBP is there something else is that what
you were getting at that you can do with
it in terms of C4 so I will say that all
all of our committee members have taken
the exams for the Committees that
they're on so our Bitcoin committee our
chair is Dirk Anderson who is an amazing
guy and he took he still takes the exam
so he he started like that and what we
do is as people take the exam if they
want to volunteer with C4 we have a form
on our website where people are able to
fill it out start to volunteer help us
create content or whatever it is that
good at basically that relates to
bitcoin and then they're able to move
forward so for example our Bitcoin
committee isn't the same as it was a
year ago so we added Anita Posh she
wrote the book um learn earn Bitcoin
um and she's incredible she is um I
think she's in Zimbabwe currently trying
to bring lightning Network to
individuals there it's really amazing
um she was brought on because she was
already interested in C4 was doing a
project with us and it kind of led to
that so when we say we're Community
Driven we mean it people who take the
exam prove their knowledge then show
that they're dedicated to education
standards certification and working with
C4 can start to become part of the
process to actually curate these exams
because again if it's just a couple
people who are doing this and they make
all the decisions it's not Community
Driven which goes against the ethos of
this protocol and within this space yes
and you know having people like Andreas
Antonopoulos I'm not sure if he's on the
board of directors I forgot what his
um just for yes so so for me just like
looking at all of his videos and how
he's orange pills so many people I still
reference his videos from time to time
and I just think that he has this
blockchain cryptocurrency
um aspect down to a science and to see
someone's name on there like him it
really gives a lot of validity and
understanding to people in the ecosystem
to say okay I've read mastering Bitcoin
so I definitely know that if this course
is being kind of surveyed by someone
like Andreas that you know he's leading
Us in the right direction to be
certified and to be knowledgeable about
Bitcoin so um I think it's really
fascinating and awesome what C4 is doing
but uh Jessica to wrap this up I want to
thank you for having such an awesome
conversation with me I learned a lot
about what you're doing in the space and
what you're continuing to do in the
future but before we go can you give
people your social media handles and
anything else that you want to tell
people about C4 before we go
sure uh c4's website is crypto
consortium.org and our LinkedIn and um
Twitter and Instagram is learn more with
C4 learn from us we we want to increase
the knowledge in the space and increase
the number of people that are able to
prove that they understand how Bitcoin
Works yes definitely I agree with that
everybody go out check out c4's website
if you're interested in learning or
trying to be certified in these
particular Industries definitely look
into what they have going on I'm
certified I took the test I studied and
I passed so you definitely can pass
don't be scared or flummoxed that the
questions are too hard and just go out
there and continue to be the best people
you can be thank you Jessica thank you
so much this is great appreciate it
