How Ordinals are Revolutionizing Bitcoin with Andreas Kohl

the_bitcoin_source:
Andre is welcome to the bit coin source. Can we start things off by having you introduce yourself to the audience?

andreas_kohl:
Sure, thanks for having me on. So my name is Andre Call. I've been a bit coiner since two thousand and twelve. My story of how I got into bit coin was originally when jud in San Entrdquatorian embassy. Actually, the week Nix founder. I was living in London. Back at the time I was. I was a follower of weekylks, so I decided to go and and stand outside the embassy. Seriously, What was going on? Some people out there were found raising for Julian in bit coin. Obviously, Week leagues have been told me deep platform. By that point there was no way to donate them with Papal or anything, so so yeah, that that was my first introduction to Bet coin, and from there I learned about Austrian ecomics. I used to work as an accountant at the time, but dropped things up to to study economic By myself. I started my first bit point start up the following year. in twenty thirteen. Umfunally, enough, you know, I was actually importing the first Bet coin compatible point of sale machine into London. I remember it was manufactured in Israel, and it was importing dozens of these machines, which, obviously, as you can probably guess, there was no demand for at the time I was extremely early with With that, then, for the next few years I made a living on local bit coins, Mostly rest in peace. Yeah, just o t. C traded for for a few years. Well while I continued studying comics and I got in bulk with some public policy work, then as well, worked with some free market think tanks, mostly about Bit coin, but also during some research about Lihensteim, And and that's how I ended up meeting with the Sovereign Prince of Letenstein, the The Rolling Prince Ifltonstein, Back in twenty fifteen, he granted me an award for an essay that I wrote about about the centralization in general. But one part of the essay was focused on the centralization of money, and that was that was the Prince Oplsonstens first introduction to bit coin, Um. From there I went on to to work at a few Start up in English Stein, as well, advising on regulatory matters. Mostly I, I was also the first person to talk to regulators in English Stein about but that point, which led to the Principality actually being the first country in the world You have regulatory framework for Lucian service providers, and in the last couple of years I've been been involved with Starting this new side chain concept with my co founder Birtodeligi, Whose is the ideator? This side chain model, we're calling it Sequent. Yeah, I'll be glad to tell you more about it during this interview, but that's that's That's my background in nutshell.

the_bitcoin_source:
Yes, Yes, you know it's interesting, Andres, like I've kind of bit a little home work on you, And you know I consider you like a bit coin o g in the space like I got in in twenty seventeen. So

andreas_kohl:
M.

the_bitcoin_source:
you have years of more experience

andreas_kohl:
Oh,

the_bitcoin_source:
in the bitcoinecosystem than myself, And how I noticed you was,

andreas_kohl:
Oh,

the_bitcoin_source:
You were in an article piece pertaining to Salvador, and kind of them getting onto the legal monetary standard or the Bit coin standard, And you know you are mentioned in like an article on There you know, Talking about your experience and you know how big coin is going to change the world and why decentralization is important. And you know I really wanted to get into this side chain

andreas_kohl:
Yeah,

the_bitcoin_source:
model that you're kind of pushing on to the Eco system because I think that you will bring a lot of value to big coin with your ideas.

andreas_kohl:
I

the_bitcoin_source:
And the question I wanted to pitch to you, Andres was M, You know, building these Utxsosidechains for tokenization and smart contracts. Um, you know, within Open Federation, I had John Light, An, I don't know if you know who John Light is, but he does

andreas_kohl:
Sure.

the_bitcoin_source:
a lot of stuff with side chains and we really got into the weeds of root stock and layer to stuff. So could you please break down like what you're building at Sequencia,

andreas_kohl:
sure. so, first of all, going to adding a little bit of background and context into why we need side change in the first place? Um, now there's There's different takes in what the use case of a side change should be. I think the one that most people can verge on is the idea, the use case of tokanization, The idea that you could just generally, tokanization refers to the idea of being able to represent as its or, or different types of rights for obligations with with a token on an existing block, rather than creating a whole new blocshing, every token, which obviously doesn't make sense, Tocanization makes the most sense on Bit coin. If bit coin is going to be the money of the future, And that's that's why organization started on Bit coin. Actually, Back in the days we had solutions like colored coins that then counter party. finally, Master Coin was the first one that really kind of to come, Which is where U d T tether was was first issued on. And what? All of these? By the way, Master coin? It's still around today. It's rebranded is only layer, and you can still trade with D T on it. But what? what? all these solutions have in common, and also some some more modern approaches like r, g, B and Terra. What what they have in common is that they? They all depend on inserting data into the bed conbluction. We call them on change organization solutions. Even though the don Situations of these technologies like R G, be like ter, like the like one bolt, the liking specification for my bier. They all make use of the liking network in order to to not needs to write inside of it coin transactions as much. And and I would say that you now this needs to write. Insevitcontransactions. is what ultimately led to tokenization taking on on different luckthans, And that's what led to outethereum taking up, and so on. Um, Now the idea of and the reason why they let you ether, taking up, and so on is because when you, when you tokanizeonfully on change, you need to take up so much space inside of it on transactions that that ultimately it doesn't. it doesn't scale. Obviously, we had to the block size wars and all those debates around that, whether we should dig, Able to include more data on chain on bet coin and an overwhelming result out of that, I think it's been over whelming consensus that that now the bet coin luck should stay small, so that the network remains as as distubited as possible, and I agree with that. But then, but then, how do we have organization that to work alongside a bit coin right? So how do How we we approach this use case that's been taken over by ther. another layer. Once? Well, the the idea of that on chain organization solutions have had in the last few years has been like I said, moving, moving through it over to lightning. Um, and that's an. that's great. but if the base to organization protocol still depends on, it still lives on change. Well, you are only Of delaying the problem little bit further down the road. because because you'll even if all the transactions between users in any token is done on lightning, you all still need to take on space inside of it on transactions when you issue a new asset, And whenever you load up that asset into a lightning channel, And and so, if we imagine a world where you know we've gone hyper bitponise, And every single asset for financial right or obligation is represented by token meant to make this asset pure to pure trade, able for bit point well with with unchanged organization, it's not going to get there ultimately, and I say this with a lot of respect for our G. V. I think the work they've done is really important, really amazing, but it's probably sufficient for for today, But again in a fully hyprobeticonized world where where we're tokenizing everything in order to try it against bit coin, it's probably not going to work and I think this is the major justification for side chains because he side chain allows you to to to tokenize its some in a way that's somehow connected to it Coin. Now there's there's not a strict definition for for side chains, O how how they connect to bit coins. It's fairly vague in the definition of the side chain, but, but in some ways sense connected to be coin, you can torganizeasets without needing to write anything inside bitcointransactions. Now the problem with this,

the_bitcoin_source:
What?

andreas_kohl:
at least with all of the side chainpyechans exist so far, and all of the pyconhyposycal syon proposals that around sieromfromsequent O, is

the_bitcoin_source:
Yes,

andreas_kohl:
that they all? they Have to rely on some sort of representation of bit coin on the side chain. You cannot. You cannot interact with with actual bit coin on the main chain directly. And so so you have l b C on liquid, You have r b C on root stuff. There's no v. C coming out on an Tex Tex Cases is actually a little bit worse because because they have their own independent token, that's not even Peg to bet coin which every single user is forced to have Um. so Well, so s t x, I would is what I would personally refer to as a ship coin because it's it competes with bit coin into monitory use case. The bet coin pegs like B, t, C and r, b, t, C. For me, they are sort of in A in a great area because because they don't gain any value from being used as money from being forced to pay transaction fees with, They hold their value because they're backed by bit coin. but they're not on one hand. they're not actual bit coin. There is some counter party risk now because there's custodians and so on on federations Now you can say that with with improvements like B, P, three hundred, or with dynamic federations, this country party risk is is minimized drastically. It's made irrelevant. I would. I could possibly even agree with with that claim. But but the matter, the matter is that it's still a massive. It's still a massive bull. in terms of user experience, It's you know, living here in the sopetwhere, ve lived here for just over a year. I find myself having to explain to people what the difference between bit coin and lighting bit coin is all the time. Why are there two different types of bit coin? And I think that you know having to explain this is Is all right. You know. At least the lightning bit point is justified and it's possible to imagine the world in the future where it's the main form of bit point that most people use rather than change, but but having having a third type of bit point, whether it's l, b, d C or b, d, C, et cetera, for for for financial markets, I think that's that's something that can not be justified. I think I think the user experience that you get from from these previously men And unchanged solutions, like our G, B and Taro, and on the bolt is vastly superior, you know, because they don't require you to have any third token, if other than bit, coin and token, is that you're interested in, So so for me, the Ux has to be that If I, if I have us, D, T and I want to sell it on a decent exchange, pere pere, for B. C. You know, I'm not going to need any third token, whether it, whether it's a token that represents bit, coin or all, Or another type of token, I shouldn't need anything else, Just the assets and interested in trading plus bit point. So this is what we're trying to do with Sequent. We're trying to create the first side chain because we believe in intoscalability offered by side chains that actually has the user experience of unchanged organization. On what I mean by that in practice, and I can get to a bit more to how this works. Secondly in the bet. but Just just on this point onsequenca, there is not going to be any native transaction fee token. Users will be able to choose any token issued on the side chain to pay their transaction fees with, or to try to pay their transaction fees with, because it depends on the blood Creator being being interested in collecting those tokens. And so that means that if you have us, D, T, and you want bit point, you're not going to need anything else to begin up with. You'll be able to pay your transaction just with us, D. T, and on To decentaize exchange that Ouse. Did you sell that for for actual B, T. C, Um, So so yeah, that's That's kind of the the very proposition that we're bringing on.

the_bitcoin_source:
Yeah, there was a lot to mpact there. a lot of technical. you know jargon there, but what I will say from what I have kind of

andreas_kohl:
Oh,

the_bitcoin_source:
digested, from what you said on Drays, seems like, Um, a lot of people are having an issue with Bit Coing in regards to security and innovation, so they want to keep things secure. They want to keep things simple in kind of the way they were, but at the same time to innovate into scale bit coin, you have to do things like

andreas_kohl:
Oh,

the_bitcoin_source:
side chains. And when I had the conversation with John, like me and him were going back and forth for almost an hour about It, and I think a lot of bit coiners are so stuck in their ways when it comes to bit coin. only no tokens, no ship coins.

andreas_kohl:
Oh,

the_bitcoin_source:
They don't even want to mention it when you start talking about side chains, so I'm glad that you kind of broke that down because it's kind of opening my eyes to, because I'm a you know hard cord bit coiner, and just to hear, um, some possible solutions of like, you know how we could actually scale this where Um, you don't end up bogging up or slowing down. the main chain is always a good thing and It makes me think about. you know some of the new innovations that people are trying to push on to the protocol, such as ordinals, and I wanted to ask you about them. as far as do you believe that they ruin the privacy of Bit coin, And is it beneficial to have you know images, video, and h, t, m, l. to be included in the block chain transaction and assigned to an individual Setoc.

andreas_kohl:
Now Y position on originals. You have to take it with a grain of salt care because it's It's a. Yeah, it's a little bit anostic. but honestly I don't think that storing the storing japes on the black makes any sense at all. I don't. I don't view ordinals as an attack factor Ide, Because well, They are paying for the block space that they're using. There's a caveat here. I understand a nuance that they have this seventy five percent discount with tap root, So that that is something you know that it's the reason why I would tell you to take my my position with a grain of salt, Because, because there is some nuance here that I'm not really taking it to account for much. but, but just over all in the big picture, I think that what I would say about ordinal in that Are they are paying valuable sitosis to to use valuable block space, putting worthless data into it. And that's that's not sustainable. Using value for no value to get no value out of it Is I simply never going to get to be sustainable and therefore it can not be an attecvecture, because an attecvecture by definition, would have to be some something that can be sustained against bit coin. So My, my position on them is really just ignore them and they'll go away because no one's really getting anything out of it except maybe riling up bit coiners, which, which is why we should ignore them so that they'll go away. Because, because yeah, they're just. They're just trying to wrap us up. Now that that position doesn't doesn't extend to all n f ts. universally. I, I think that That's a majority of N f Ts are in deed camps, but they don't necessarily have to be, and also just to go back to what what you were talking about about ship coins. Now, I think that it's very important for bit corners to actually settle on on the precise definition of what ship coin is. You know, the word gets thrown about a lot without much critical thinking, and I think you know it's not that we should get rid The word altogether. It's a very useful word. It's a very useful getrigarization. but we we should. We should be a little bit more precise about it. Well, at least my, my definition of a shift coin. How I used the word is, Is any any digital? Lest that that claims, claims a monetary use case, but is an bit coin. Now if a token is, if a token Is enforced as a transaction F token, like for example, it on Ethereum or Soul, and so Ana, Etcetera. for me, that automata automatically makes it a ship coin if and even if it's not being enforced as a transaction fee currency. If if in any way now the token presents itself as as something that's meant to be used as a means of exchange,

the_bitcoin_source:
Yes,

andreas_kohl:
then it's It's also, It's also a ship point, but not not all tokens are ship points, and I go even further and say that not all scamps are ship points. Some some tokens are Sammy, Very obviously Prontelan, but did not fit within this definition of the ship coin, So so that's another kind of little caveats here. Um, so for example, f. t, as far as I know, they never presented that as Being used as money. I didn't have it on luxury where you'd have to pay that token as a transaction fee. So I would say that I would even go as far as saying that F. t. T was not a ship point. Although don't get me wrong, it was very much a camp. But but yeah, so so that's that. that's just about. gang definition S more precise. so according to my definition, cannot really be ship coins yet most of them do. Do you have frudelant intentions? They don't have any real world utility. There are some some interesting exceptions going on. I heard the other day about some some N used to get up corn in the U. S. At theaters. I don't know much about it, but but I think stuff like that you know could be could make sense could be interesting. further. More actual regulators Purities. I think that's that's probably the most interesting use face for tokanization. But but yeah, we shouldn't. We shouldn't confuse tokenizing assets and rights, especially real life, right with with ship coining, because on one thing can, on one hand you've got something that can actually may be bet. coin. More useful, more salable. On the other hand, you've got Should be competing against it, coin and moving in the space of bit coin attacking. It's its use case. So yeah, those are two two separate things.

the_bitcoin_source:
Yeah, and you know you know, taking a picture of a monkey and trying to monetize it and transfer it. It's just to me, it just makes no sense, but I will say that I feel like N f Ts might be useful in the sense of like, um, arbitraging art, or bringing some value to it at some point, or using it to like skin. Take it to get into a concert, But I mean, of course we have Q r codes, but

andreas_kohl:
Oh,

the_bitcoin_source:
it just makes me think about any time you talk about n f Ts. you're automatic Putting yourself into like a quota alternative coin category And I remember talking to John about bridges, and when he said the word bridges, I was like, Wait a minute, because soon as I hear the word bridge, I'm like You know, bridges are the things that always get hacked, especially when you're talking

andreas_kohl:
A.

the_bitcoin_source:
about cardono Salona, So he had to kind of explain to me how root stock uses a bridge, but that side chain is still kind of backed by bit coin. so when you kind of explain that to me, I said Okay that Max, As long as it's still being based around the the number one asset, which is bit coin, I think these side chains and being educated on side

andreas_kohl:
Oh

the_bitcoin_source:
chains is something that I feel is extremely important. That's why I have you on the show and you know, I just want to really dig into more of these concepts because I think a lot of big corners are just truly ignorant to what side chains are in their potential. So Um, do you believe? like you know, issuing tokens inside of a big bit coin block offers much better use experience then A side chain would, even with this fully trust less, two way peg.

andreas_kohl:
Yeah. that's that's exactly what what I claim again. You know this is well for me while well, it's just you know a few of us bit point nerves in our basement. It's totally plain you have pegs and bridges, and and so on, but we have to think about the mass adoption, The possibility of mass adoption, and whether whether certain user experiences user journeys are are viable for mass adoption. Now that a lot of people think that that means it's is sacrificing on trustleusness and self custody. A lot of people think that that's the only way to get massadoption. You know it. you have sodial services third parties and ultimately ultimately well, that's that's one route you know and I recognize here in our salvator, you know, we've had this this mix up, top down and button of adoption, which has I think, been been really healthy, and some of it has involved introducing people to the technology through costodial services, But in the in the big picture, in the long run, I think that that we don't have, We don't have to make a trade up Titus. Between one of these trade us, I think that that precisely what's beautiful about it coin is that it's It's a technology that can that can scale to mass mass use without giving up on any of its fundamental principles, So so yeah, I think that even if a peg was made fully Two way trustless, as they claim at r, s, K is as block scream, also want to give the impression with with dynamic federations, as post storks talks about with with drive chains and P three hundred, even if if it is, even if if it is actually achievable, it's still always going to be a bull neck in terms of boarding actual users to to actually use it. So So yeah, r g, B, I think has the potential has the most potential out of any layer to larity solution under work side from from sequentia to day, precisely because it has this this user experience which can actually even be made better, because with with r g B, as long as you're not doing things on lighting, as long as you're still on change Still needs to have it point you pay transaction fee for for tokens, Whereas I think that the best possible user experience would have you be able to to sell us, D. T without having anything else, even without already having bit coin, you know, and it's just it's just about trying to make these things make sense, while well, not sacrificing sacrificing anything in terms of in, in terms of the trustlessness, The distribution of the network, which is what, what every other layer one has has sacrificed in competing kings, bit coin.

the_bitcoin_source:
Yes, and you know that makes me think about something when you mentioned Salvador. Of course they have the chief wallet

andreas_kohl:
M.

the_bitcoin_source:
and I interviewed. Nor who is the interim co for Bit Coin, Beach Wallet,

andreas_kohl:
Yeah,

the_bitcoin_source:
And I asked her a question, And I want to ask you because you're actually living in the country and you experience, you know the bit coin. You

andreas_kohl:
Oh,

the_bitcoin_source:
know, Paradimeshift that they're They're currently being under. And my question to you is and this ties into side change is. Do you believe that the chief O wallet can be actually more effective if they use Lightning instead of trying to do things on the main chain layer or trying to on board Salvadorians, who you know most more than likely have been unbanked. You know prior to two thousand and one. so, a lot of these people are just coming on to Bit Coin, Have never had a banking service before. Do you think because lightning uses small day to day transactions that it would actually helped achieve wallet. Achieve what savaroris trying to do?

andreas_kohl:
Well, I'm not sure of what you mean here, because Shivo does use lightning. I mean you can pay with lightning to Cibo.

the_bitcoin_source:
No, I mean like lightning first, as far

andreas_kohl:
All right,

the_bitcoin_source:
as like when they. Yeah, like when they first came out with the wallet like they should have just done lightning first. And then I think that would have made all the discrepancies a lot easier.

andreas_kohl:
Yeah, possibly, I mean, I think the biggest problems with Chev have been first of all to roll out with thirty dollar air drop. A lot of people getting that stolen from them. That that probably was the worst worst thing. I don't think there was really any way to to solve that. I'm not sure how the attack happened, whether Was brute force. In any case, I didn't have much to do with to itself more with the Social Security administration, but that's that's that hurts the credibility and reputation of the Ap. quite a lot. From the get go. Then the biggest problem since then, I would say I've been around equality, not being able to withdraw our eight Ms. that are empty, but well in Of the official Ap itself. You know, you read on Twitter. Love of really, really bad reviews of chief people had terrible experiences, and actually, in my experience, most of these of these terrible experiences. At least, considering Chip as a point of self, they actually don't come from the standard implementation of the application. There's a lot of stores here and a avadorthathat connect to chief T. P. S. But they, they have their own their own custom made application, And that's where most of the problems like with with payments timing out before the he've been registered, And that's where it happens with merchants that are simply using the standard version gun from the up store are place torn. There's there's not much of a problem As a point of self. Just from the point of view of the customer. there's There's mainly just been problems with liquidity, which, which I think there they're solving. Now. Well, I hope so, at least because for me, Eva, is she always kind of like it's a transition. It's a transitory application. For me. it's main use cases for Salvador merchants that are not ready to be orange filled yet, you know, whenever I talk to you, So

the_bitcoin_source:
Hm,

andreas_kohl:
One that that doesn't accept point yet. I usually end up recommending achieve to them. But that's not the first thing I do. The first thing is, there's no alternative for a good old orange pilling, and to self custody, and so on. And so that's That's the first thing that I try to do whenever a new commercial at doesn't accept bit point. But now for love, the they've they just don't don't want to deal with this yet. Know they there there? They're thinking month to month, so they're not going to Be exposed to anything that's volatile enough to to affect their month to month. And that's that's where she will really make sense because it allows you to be compliant with with the Don without necessarily being exposed to fit, coining in any way, having to touch bit coin at any point, Because there's that's Alto, conversion to U. S. D. that, of course, and so if they still hold liquidity issues, so that It's always similar to transfer to your bank account, And then for me it's doing its job. It doesn't need to do any more

the_bitcoin_source:
Yeah, and you know, like a lot of the news or the food coming out of Salvador for people that have never been there, or people that've never actually utilized the Cheval wallet. This is why love to Actu people that actually used it. I feel like a lot of the Alt corners used this as a full crom. To say you see, they went to the big coin standard. It doesn't work. The It has some wonkey features to the to the application. This is why you need to use this alternative corner. that alternative coin and I always remember Jimmy Song saying that You know every Alt corner is playing a game of trying to make their money and then getting out before it collapses, And do you believe that the C C will crush the coin market, making it easier for bit coin to flourish in the future?

andreas_kohl:
Well. That's That's an interesting question. I, I'm not sure. I'm not. I don't keep track of stoping in the U. S. that much most in Europe. but but obviously we've proaball, heard what Garicansers saying, and I don't know. I think you know. whatever ends Happening there, Ed. there needs to be some, some, some precise guide lines and definitions as much as as much as I wish we could just shut down all all ship coins in a click. you know I, I don't think this should be at the cost of proper principles of rule of law. So so yeah, there's definitely love Soto securities out there, rather On registered securities, And it makes sense that that the lone would be enforced on them as they would with with any other issue of securities, whether they are tokenized or not, and all I think is that it needs to be consistent and precise in its definitions, which is something which I am not sure we have right now with the current buildings coming out of the.

the_bitcoin_source:
Yes, I agree with that, and I think that there's just not enough clarity and regulation there. I think that, in my honest opinion, I think that Bit Coing has already reached the level where they really can't control it. They really don't have a true way to regulate it. so they're kind of just like pingponging between hand picking, certain exchanges that they want to you know, audit, or just charging people with

andreas_kohl:
Oh,

the_bitcoin_source:
fraud, Depending if a celebrity or whatever, That's what you're seeing a lot in America. I know you're not aware, but I really Wanted to kind of switch gears and talk about something I see you converse about sometimes, which is security. the security aspects of certain things, in particular notes. And you know, nodes on the Lightning network are required to be online at all times in order for them to send and receive payments, And you know, since the parties involved in those transactions must be online, Um, they have to use their private keys to sign in. Obviously, is it possible that those coins could be stolen after computer storing Those private keys are compromised?

andreas_kohl:
Well, of course, if a machine that's storing private piece unincorrupted gets compromised than then the those private keys are compromised, so that you should never be storing unincrupted private keys locally. Um, what's what's more dangerous than stolen private case As long, obviously, as long as you're not storing anything locally, as unintrupted as you should, is manned in the middle. Um. Now her a little bit harder to do these days than they were ten years ago. That say Um. but there they're still. They're still. They're still a significant risk. That's why Airgapt Solutions signing signing up line is always better. but but well, As it's always been a matter of of risk profile with Awithfitcoin Now it depends on how comfortable you are taking different kind of risks and how comfortable you are taking extra steps to you to appoint those risks. But, but in genegenerally speaking, I would say that consumer liking applications are are secure enough for for what they're intended to do to be used Today.

the_bitcoin_source:
Yes, Yes, I think that that makes perfect sense as well, and Andreas, this is the last question. Um, you know, like what would be your call to action for people that are interested in side chains, or even better, you know what you want to achieve with Sequencia within the next few months or years, that you kind of think will really change and revolutionize the Bit coin Eco system?

andreas_kohl:
Well now the first thing you want to do is to challenge this pole step to me that you hydro have to tokenize on chain, or you need some some sort of representation of bit coin if you are going to create a nice system of tokenized financial asses that can be traded against V, T, C, Um, and yeah, there's There's a lot of documentation on our website. On our blood. We talk about how we're challenging these notions. We talk about some, some of the ideas that that we have to make this first to go. And and you know, I think, don't don't be afraid to to quote things out, and to criticise things. You know that. I think that's Possibly one of the biggest challenges that we have as a community That people are fraid to talk about things because they're afraid that they will get shut down and criticize too much. And now people are a bit pregile around things know, I think that's the way that that we move batgoing forward, and that we change the world with it is without without fear, you know, and and openly discussing discussing things and un, challenging each other, And I want to be challenged around the cut. I want these ideas to be challenged. I want. I want to defend them honestly, and you know I don't. I don't want to. I don't want to do What the crypto cam world? Does you know? Just astraturfing and manufactured conversation. S. I want there to be actual real conversations between us, So so yeah, that would be my culture action To bet coiners in general to just come from attack. S.

the_bitcoin_source:
Yes, that's sound advice, Andree, I

andreas_kohl:
Yeah,

the_bitcoin_source:
couldn't agree more. Could you give the world your social media handles, And you know, I just want to thank you for being on the bit on source, a bit coin conversation. This has been an awesome take on side change ordeals. M. you know what you're doing at sequence. I'm really honored and appreciative of you coming on the show

andreas_kohl:
Thanks O. that for having us. My handle on Twitter is a g, h. l. That's also my handle. A telegram, A bunch of other social media sequentios handle and twitters, sequent q, U, and we. We also have our blood and documentation, as I mentioned on our main websitequenhe. at I, o u. D yeh feel free to you to drop me a line. Idrmontwitter, telegram, Anywhere Would would love to carry on this conversation. Yeah,

the_bitcoin_source:
Once again, Andre. thank you for being on the Bit Coin source,